The following is a blog/note conversation between Celtics fan and Laker-hater Mark Church, and Lakers fan and Celtic-hater J-Ri.Feel free to jump in the conversation, as I’ll continually update it as our debate continues.

Enjoy!

Mark Church: (6/3)

And, this seems odd, I’m not going to have to make two different lists because they’re basically identical people. On the eve of the commencement of The Great Tribulation in the state of California — (or what will forever be known as The Kobe Meltdown 2009, or The-Straw-That-Broke-The-Camel’s-Back-Leading-To-Every-Californian-Realizing-Now-That-Their-Beloved-Lakers-Are-Finished-And-Their-Economy-Still-Sucks-And-Their-Lives-Still-Revolve-Around-Tmz-They-All-Faint-At-One-Time-And-California-Breaks-Off-The-Continental-US. The last one may be a bit long…maybe an acronym would help…) — I thought it fitting to list why I will be adamantly rooting for Orlando, and an unfortunate injury to that one guy who raped that chick. Allegedly. Here goes nothing.

1. Half of the courtside or front row seats are empty half the game because it’s picture time somewhere and none of them care about what’s going on or why someone gave them a $2000 seat. The least offensive and most obvious first…

2. Both teams are incapable of acknowledging a bad trade or signing when it happens. “Caron Butler wouldn’t have fit our system, and Kwame gave us good minutes.” “They said Kevin Brown’s, and Carl Pavano’s and Jose Contreras’ injuries were minor” “How were we supposed to know Raul Mondesi and Jason Giambi and Roger Clemons were on the juice? Every baseball player is 6’4 250 with a massive head.” (Now the Lakers get a bit of a break here because Ariza, and Brown and sadly Kobe all were the product of great trades, but the point here is not acknowledging bad ones.).

3. They honestly believe that the success of sports relies on their success so every team should trade their players to them for peanuts, a paperclip, and a used movie ticket. i.e. the entire KG talks a couple years back or the Yankees every freaking offseason.

4. Because this comes out of their mouth. “You’re all just jealous! We’re so hated and we thrive on that hate as we win our championships and hurt the financial state of the game.” K, that last part was me. Economic recession? We’ll just spend ____ million dollars on three players jacking up rates for every other team because we can and you’re all just jealous of our success….

5. Possibly a corollary with #1. All good seats don’t go to real fans, but to stupid celebs, their girlfriends, and their escorts. Jack and Billy Crystal are excluded from this.

6. They’re the biggest band-wagon fans ever, and their teams are consistently good. They only truly support them when they’re really really really really really good. A Finals exit is just unacceptable….

7. 85% of them aren’t even from LA or NYC, and just like their faith of choice Scientology, their best traits are that they’re gullible mindless drones.

8. They got rid of Shaq. End of point.

9. They relentlessly defend Kobe as he throws teammates under the bus, shoots 35 times a game, and rapes people. allegedly….

10. Because of this. “We haven’t won a championship in 4 years. It’s been too too long.” This sense of mindless entitlement puts a bad taste in any true sports fan’s mouth. It makes me a Cubs, Red Sox, Portland fan. Teams with knowledgeable, passionate fans though their teams haven’t won anything in forever. (Red Sox fans are starting to bug me though)

Alas, I live in KC and we haven’t won anything of significance in 25 years. But nevertheless, I can honestly say that my day gets better when I see the dejected and grief-stricken faces of Laker and Yankee fans when their teams lose. What infuriates me though, is it’s directly under their numerous Pennants and Banners, as they sip out of their collectible cup, wearing their World Champion hat. I hope your private hell is a brightly lit room painted Celtic Green, with nothing but Boston sports-talk radio blaring at high volumes. I hope your $7 triple iced mocha frappacino always comes out wrong. I hope your yoga/pilates dvd will always skip. I hope it rains on your wedding day. I hope every time you get in your car you have a flat tire. I hope more of your governors have affairs and your economy remains in shambles. Most of all I hope neither win championships this year. Glad I got that off my chest.

J-Ri: (6/3)

#1. Agreed. The 100′s section @ Staples goes for $650+/ ticket; courtside runs $2k+/ ticket. About 1% of the 14m people that live in LA County can regularly afford to drop that on Lakers tickets. It’s retarded, I hate it, and I got ripped for it after writing a column about it a couple months back. Unfortunately, the Lakers are a ‘show’ in Los Angeles. It’s an opportunity for celebrities to grab face time in front of the general public. Love it or hate it, that’s Hollywood for you.

#2. Agreed. But, let’s say you’re a GM who made a ridiculous deal. Let’s say you’re under fire from the National media. Do you not try to defend yourself, your job and your livelihood? I mean, I can’t remember a GM for any professional sports team showing up at a press conference and saying, “Hey, that move I made? Yeah, stupid, sorry about that.”

#3. Mostly agree. Gasol to L.A. for a bag of weed and a Dr. Dre tape was appalling. But so was Garnett to Boston for two bags of weed and a Dr. Dre CD. I don’t agree with it, but then again, this is professional sports. There are no rules around success. If I’m a GM of a big market team and have that kind of leverage, I’m using it too.

#4. No salary cap in baseball is almost as dumb as Paris Hilton getting another TV show. I mean, really? Big city markets give teams a decided advantage, and like you said, make it impossible for teams like the Royals to match salary offers. Essentially, players agents hold all the power. How can a sport be successful like that? This is why I’m not a big baseball fan.

The NBA does a relatively good job with salary caps. The luxury tax forces owners to match every dollar spent over the salary cap with a dollar. Plus, you see small market teams win championships, most recently the tiny Spurs organization racking up 3 this decade.

#5. 1 million % agree. I think it’s simple business though: Mark Church owns a pro team. Fan X is willing to pay $2k to sit courtside. Fan Y is willing to pay $500 to courtside. Mark Church is interested in making a profit because he’s running a business. Mark Church gives the seat to Fan X. … Does it suck? Absolutely. Does it make sense? I think so.

#6. (Glad I’m in the exception on this one) … Here’s my issue on this one. I think “support” and “excitement” are too different things. A lot of fans “support” their teams when they suck, but their excitement level is low because, well, they’re losing. Nobody goes into work excited about the Chiefs being 1-746. When the team starts to win, fans start to get excited, generate buzz, etc.

For example, I love the Chiefs. They were appalling last season. Being in L.A., I still watched their games online, kept up with their recaps, news, box scores, etc. But, when it came to being excited about that team, it wasn’t there. I wasn’t in chat forums talking about them or kicking off conversations saying, “Did you see the Chiefs last Sunday?” I think it’s like this in every city.

Look at Cleveland with Lebron. Tons of bandwagoners? For sure. But, I think there’s an element of loyal, unexcited fans suddenly perking up with excitement when they are given the opportunity to win.

#7. Kinda’ like you with Boston? …

#8. Agree. Terrible move. I blame it on Kobe and Shaq being unable to act like grown adults and find a way to co-exist. Prime example of egotistical athletes who have been pampered their entire lives. Management had to choose, and only when they both retire will we be able to judge whether or not it was a good decision.

#9. I don’t support everything Kobe’s done. But he’s a great player. In ’05, Bryant jacked up 27 shots/game. But look at this team: Smush, Walton, Kwame, Odom, Mihm, Bryant, Sasha. He also scored an insane 35ppg, got his pathetic team to the playoffs and almost beat the Suns in the first round. On a similar team in ’87, Jordan took the same number of shots/game and scored the same number of points/game. Last I checked, nobody’s grilling M.J. Check out Kobe’s shots per game in the last three seasons: 22, 20, 20. Can we really grill him for something he really was only guilty of for a couple seasons?

Sure, Kobe’s been a huge bastard in his personal life. I doubt he raped that girl, but even if he didn’t, he cheated on his wife, which is HUGE B.S. But seriously, do not 80% of these professional athletes lead a ‘bastard’ kind of life off the court/field? How many kids does Bron have? How many women did M.J. cheat on his wife with? How many times did A.I. kick his girlfriend outside naked? If we judged professional athletes based on their personal lives, well, we’d probably hate sports.

#10. Agree, 4 years seems like a long time when you’re used to winning, or contending for a title, every other year. I can’t imagine what it’s like to be a Cubs, Blazers, Royals, Chiefs, Clippers, Grizzlies, etc fan. And yes, I agree, Red Sox fans are annoying…